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Liverpool or United - who's won the most trophies?
Also in this week's Knowledge: The fastest man in football (II); Emile Heskey: Record breaker and Multiple hat-tricks (II)
Send your questions and answers to knowledge@guardian.co.uk
Remember when Liverpool were half-decent?
The Knowledge
Liverpool or United - who's won the most trophies?
Also in this week's Knowledge: The fastest man in football (II); Emile Heskey: Record breaker and Multiple hat-tricks (II)
Send your questions and answers to knowledge@guardian.co.uk
Wednesday 4 February 2004 10.42 EST
First published on Wednesday 4 February 2004 10.42 EST
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"I wonder if you can resolve a dispute between me and a friend," asks Alasdair Maughan. "He claims that Liverpool are the most decorated team in England in terms of trophies won, but I reckon Manchester United's form over the 1990s must have pushed them close. Who's right? (We're undecided whether we should count the Charity Shield and Super Cup "trophies" by the way, but I don't think it will make a big difference).
Well, you're right about one thing Alasdair - the addition of Charity Shields and Super Cups don't matter a jot. Because whatever way you look at it, Liverpool win hands down.
If you take major trophies won (League, FA Cup, League Cup, European Cup, Cup Winners' Cup and Uefa Cup), Liverpool win by 38 to 29. Add Charity Shields and Super Cups to the mix and the result stays exactly the same - Liverpool totalling 55 trophies compared to United's 46.
Here's the evidence (Knowledge puts on extra-strength anorak).
Liverpool have won the league title on 18 occasions - in 1900-01, 1905-06, 1921-22, 1922-23, 1946-47, 1963-64, 1965-66, 1972-73, 1975-76, 1976-77, 1978-79, 1979-80, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84, 1985-86, 1987-88 and 1989-90.
The FA Cup six times - in 1964-65, 1973-74, 1985-86, 1988-89, 1991-92 and 2000-01.
The League Cup seven times - in 1980-81, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84, 1994-95, 2000-2001 and 2002-2003.
The European Cup four times (in 1976-77, 1977-78, 1980-81 and 1983-84) and the Uefa Cup three times (in 1972-73, 1975-76 and 2000-01).
United have made huge inroads into Liverpool's total in recent years but only in the FA Cup (with 10 wins) do they surpass them.
United have won the league on 15 occasions in 1907-08, 1910-11, 1951-52, 1955-56, 1956-57, 1964-65, 1966-67, 1992-93, 1993-94, 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01 and 2002-03.
Meanwhile their 10 FA Cup triumphs have come in 1908-09, 1947-48, 1962-63, 1976-77, 1982-83, 1984-85, 1989-90, 1993-94, 1995-96 and 1998-99.
Finally - deep breath - they have won the League Cup just once (in 1991-92) and three European trophies - the European Cup in 1967-68 and 1998-99 and the European Cup Winners' Cup in 1990-91.
So now you know.
WHO IS THE FASTEST MAN IN FOOTBALL (2)
Last week we attempted to answer Andrew Bond's question about the fastest man in football. We failed. But, like a dog with an extremely juicy bone, we're not letting go. Andrew suggested Wrexham's Chris Armstrong, but Tim Hill countered with John Williams, now 35 and plying his trade at Kidderminster. And several of you agree.
"I'm pretty sure that Saint and Greavsie hosted a competition, to find the fastest player in the First Division," reminisces Duncan Lewis. "As far as I remember, each of the clubs put forward their fastest player and then there were heats, with the final taking place at Wembley - it was definitely John Williams who won it. At the time he was at Coventry, having moved from Swansea. I do believe that prior to this he was a postman and so, inevitably, was nicknamed the flying postman; either that or Williamsy."
Steve Williams reckons that the competition won by his namesake was called the Rumbelows Sprint Challenge and took place in the 1991-92 season, and that commentary was provided by Alan Parry and Steve Cram. George Young recalls the players having to run in boots on grass, while Colin Carter says the title was won the previous year by Efan Ekoku, "just before he moved to Norwich".
John Williams, incidentally, appears to be one of the great journeymen of modern times. He started out with non-league Cradley Town in 1990, before moving on to Swansea and then, a year later, signing for Coventry for £250,000. It was the highpoint of a career that has since seen him turn out for Notts County, Stoke, Swansea (again), Wycombe, Hereford, Walsall, Exeter, Cardiff, York, Darlington, Swansea (yet again), and finally Kidderminster.
But it seems he might not even be the answer to our question. "During the TV show Superstars," reports Stuart Curran, "Malcolm MacDonald ran 100m in 10.4 seconds - on a cinder track with heavy spikes. At the time that made him the third-fastest sprinter in the UK and could have got him on the 4x100m relay team for the Montreal Olympics."
This is one query, it seems, that could run and run. Sorry.
EMILE HESKEY: RECORD BREAKER?
"Emile Heskey has four League Cup winner's medals," says Justin Toland. "The big fella won his League Cup medals with two different clubs. Can any player match or better that feat?"
Yes they can, Justin. As Sean DeLoughry points out: "Liverpool won the League Cup four times in a row between 1981-84, so Heskey is hardly alone - Phil Neal, Alan Kennedy, Kenny Dalglish and Sammy Lee can all match his tally.
"However Ian Rush can go one better - adding to his four wins in the 1980s with another League Cup medal in 1995 when Liverpool beat Bolton 2-1."
MULTIPLE HAT-TRICKS (2)
Following on from last week's query about hat-tricks and match balls, Mark Aspinall writes in with some added value.
"You said you didn't know who got the match ball after three players - Tony Adcock, Paul Stewart and David White - got hat-tricks in Manchester City's 10-1 tonking of Huddersfield in 1987," he says. "According to an interview with White on an MCFC video, two balls were actually used in the match and another one was dug up from somewhere. So although the three hat-trick heroes got a ball each, no one knows for certain who got what."
Both Mark and Norval Scott point out that nowadays, several balls are used per game anyway, which should make the problem slightly easier to solve. Gary Pritchard even provides some concrete evidence. "On December 26, Caernarfon Town played Bangor City in the Welsh Premiership," he writes. "Paul Roberts of Bangor scored a hat-trick, as did debutant Steve Watkin for the home side. Caernarfon gave both players a match ball as more than one ball was used during the match."
Meanwhile Lawrence Hurley remembers a hat-trick that might just be unique. "I recall Chris Pike scoring a hat-trick for Hereford United," he says, "with each goal past a different goalkeeper. I can't quite remember the order, but one was sent off, then another was injured, and an outfield player ended up in goal. The score was 5-0, and I think the game was in the early 90s." Can anyone match that?
Think you can? Email knowledge@theguardian.com
Can you help?
"On Saturday Bolton substituted Giannakopoulos for Ba. Is the longest name substitution for the shortest ever?" asks Brendan Lyons.
"Wayne Carlisle has scored all three of Bristol Rovers goals against Carlisle United to help the Gas win both their matches 2-0 and 1-0," says Diego Black. "Is this the first case of a player scoring all his clubs goals in a season against a club which shares his surname?"
Send your questions and answers to knowledge@theguardian.com